36 min to read
From the Dojo to the Boardroom: Mastering the "Black Belt" Mindset in Sales
An Interview with Michel Laporte Godorn Date: January 8, 2026
The Roots of a Fighter: From Seychelles to Sweden
Bruno Gavino: Michel, you have a fascinating story—a mix of cultures (Seychelles, Italy, and now Gothenburg). How has this cocktail shaped your world?
Michel Laporte Godorn: It’s been a journey. I was born in the beautiful islands of the Seychelles. My father is Italian; he moved there in the 60s but grew up in post-war Europe. We moved to Sweden when I was about five. Growing up as an immigrant kid has its challenges, and that’s actually how I found Karate.
I’ve been a student of full-contact Karate since I was nine. Like many kids in the 80s, I was inspired by The Karate Kid and Ninja Turtles, but it was also about self-defense and building confidence.
Bruno Gavino: You often talk about a "fighting spirit." How does that martial arts mentality translate into a regular business day?
Michel Laporte Godorn: Karate goes from a hobby to a way of life. It’s the art of Budo—the way of the samurai. It means having a student mentality at all times. In business, as soon as we face adversity, it’s easy to give up. Karate taught me to push through. Without that discipline, I never would have survived as an entrepreneur.
As Rocky Balboa said: "It’s not about how hard you can get hit; it’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward." That is the essence of entrepreneurship.
The Discovery: Why Startups Fail at Sales
Bruno Gavino: You left a high-paying role as a Sales Director to dive into the startup world. What did you see there that others were missing?
Michel Laporte Godorn: In 2016, I hit a ceiling. I had helped a company grow from 60 to 120 million in turnover, but I was bored. I’m an entrepreneur at heart. When I started looking at the startup community in Sweden, I noticed a massive gap.
Every startup course taught you how to build a website or incorporate a company, but they gave maybe 30 minutes to sales. Nobody was teaching what to do on Monday morning when you actually have to get a client. > The Harsh Reality: 7 out of 10 solopreneurs can't pay their bills with their business. 9 out of 10 startups fail within 18 months, even with funding.
Bruno Gavino: How did you turn that observation into a business?
Michel Laporte Godorn: It was a discovery phase. At first, I thought I had a solution everyone would want. I was naive. I realized that sales isn't about the product; it's about the problem. I had to stop talking about my solution and start talking about their pain—like economical stress. When I addressed the pain, the market finally started listening.
The "Black Belt" Sales Methodology
Bruno Gavino: You talk about "Black Belt Sales." For those of us who aren't martial artists, what does that look like in a modern sales environment?
Michel Laporte Godorn: A black belt isn't just a piece of fabric; it’s a level of maturity. I still spar 20 rounds every Monday. A client once joined me and noticed that the black belts weren't the ones swinging wildly or acting aggressive. We were patient. We waited for the opening, and then we were precise.
In sales, beginners focus only on results (numbers). A "Black Belt" focuses on the process.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Results are dead—they are in the past. The process is a living thing you can always improve. When you focus on the process, you gain patience. You stop trying to go from zero to a million in three weeks and start building a foundation that lasts.
From Pressure to Partnership
Bruno Gavino: Your book mentions shifting from "Pressure to Partnership." How do you convince a board of directors to stop pushing for hourly sales and start looking at partnerships?
Michel Laporte Godorn: It’s an attitude shift that must start in the boardroom. Think of a closed fist: you can only punch with it. But if you open your hand, you can invite someone in. That’s the difference between pressure and partnership.
In 2026, the market is saturated with noise and ads. The winners are those who take a step back and seek to understand the buyer's behavior. A partner needs understanding, not pressure.
Bruno Gavino: But what about the small business owner who is desperate for their first $100k? Desperation is hard to hide.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Exactly. Clients don’t communicate with words; they communicate with intention. If you are desperate for their money, they sense it and reject you. Pressure comes when you don’t own a process. If you have a system you trust, you calm down. You become professional. You close more deals because you aren't chasing them with a "closed fist."
The Role of AI: Human Connection vs. Automation
Bruno Gavino: You’ve explored AI deeply. Which parts of sales should we automate, and what must stay human?
Michel Laporte Godorn: Technology is a tractor. I can buy a tractor, seeds, and water, but that doesn't make me a farmer. I still need to understand the earth.
AI should handle the "back office" of sales—reminders, follow-ups, and data. I recently used an AI tool to call thousands of event participants in Swedish to give them reminders. It did in five minutes what would have cost $3,000 in human labor.
However, for complex, high-end sales, human interaction is becoming more important than ever. AI will handle the simple tasks, while the "Black Belt" humans will handle the deep connections.
Scaling the "Entrepreneurial Tree"
Bruno Gavino: For those stuck between $500k and $1M in revenue, what are the concrete steps to break through?
Michel Laporte Godorn: I always use the metaphor of a tree. The stronger the roots, the higher the tree grows.
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Analyze the Roots: Who are your top five competitors? Why do people buy from them? What is their weakness? You must refresh this every year.
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The Survival Budget: You should be able to cover your survival expenses with just two deals a month. If it takes ten deals just to survive, your process is broken.
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Stop Selling Yourself Short: Most solopreneurs underprice themselves. We look at packaging and increasing the value proposition so they can match or beat larger firms.
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Digital Strategy: This is no longer negotiable. You need a clear strategy for where your clients live, whether that’s LinkedIn or elsewhere.
The "Feel-Good" Strategy: Mental Health for Founders
Bruno Gavino: Entrepreneurship is a mountain. How do you help founders stay motivated when they hit the "lows"?
Michel Laporte Godorn: I tell my clients: that day will come. We prepare for it before it happens. Most stress comes from a lack of control—either financial or over one’s time.
The most important thing I demand from my clients is a "Feel-Good Strategy." * Mine is a forest walk five days a week—no headphones, just thoughts.
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And sparring on Mondays.
You need a routine that is non-negotiable. Routine and discipline are the greatest ways out of negative feelings.
Bruno Gavino: Michel, this has been a masterclass. Any final words for our listeners?
Michel Laporte Godorn: Stop comparing yourself to others on social media. It’s not reality. Get control of your process, believe in your path, and you won’t just survive—you will thrive.
TRANSCRIPT FROM THE CONVERSATION
00:01:03
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: So how was that
Michel Laporte Godorn: Uh yeah. So,
Bruno Gavino: cocktail?
Michel Laporte Godorn: so basically
Bruno Gavino: How is that working and how is that shaping the world?
Michel Laporte Godorn: u definitely. So, it's a little delay. I can I can see now it's a little delay. is that um I just want to before we start if there's anything more I we could do um
Bruno Gavino: I think it's it's speeding up on my end. I I don't have any issues. So,
Michel Laporte Godorn: okay super okay
Bruno Gavino: also something we can also we can deal in post-prouction probably.
Michel Laporte Godorn: super I don't want to mess up your your
Bruno Gavino: Okay. No, no,
Michel Laporte Godorn: podcast.
Bruno Gavino: no, no, no, no. And then uh the post production team will come in and do their
Michel Laporte Godorn: Oh, cool. Uh, yeah. So,
Bruno Gavino: magic.
Michel Laporte Godorn: yeah, I saw the questions and it was um uh great questions as well.
00:02:01
Michel Laporte Godorn: So, um but I always speak from uh from my heart. So, I didn't I didn't do any homework. I just thought to myself,
Bruno Gavino: That's great.
Michel Laporte Godorn: well, he asked the questions,
Bruno Gavino: Great.
Michel Laporte Godorn: I will answer straight up.
Bruno Gavino: That's amazing.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Um,
Bruno Gavino: That's exactly what we want. So, uh, take me back.
Michel Laporte Godorn: so
Bruno Gavino: Take me back to those early years. Maybe, uh, because I noticed a lot of your everything I found about you has a lot about that fighting spirit you have in you, which is not just a buzz word, uh, but necessarily taking the responsibility into your own path. So, can you walk me through that a little bit and how important that is to
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah, sure. I So,
Bruno Gavino: you?
Michel Laporte Godorn: I've been uh I've been a student of uh full contact karate since I was 9 years old. Um and I ju I started like most kids do.
00:02:57
Michel Laporte Godorn: Uh especially if you were born in the 80s like I was then you know we grew up with Karate Kid and Ninja Turtles and all these you know uh but also a little bit also because uh of you know we I I I was born in in in Seyell in the beautiful islands of Seyell and we came here um because my father he's Italian but he came here in the 60s um post-war child, you know. So, so he grew up here basically and uh and uh but he was working in seals with um with tourism and so on. And uh so we we came here when I was like uh four or five years old. Uh which growing up as an immigrant kid has its um challenges at some places also. Uh so I had various reasons why I ended up uh going to a karate school. Uh I wanted to defend myself. I wanted to build my confidence and so on. Uh so that was basically how it started.
00:04:10
Michel Laporte Godorn: But then um I don't know I got
Bruno Gavino: Okay,
Michel Laporte Godorn: stuck
Bruno Gavino: you got stuck. But how does um what how does that all of that mentality, how does it bring to you the things you've learned along that path? How does it bring to you like on a on a on a regular day? Because obviously you feel more prepared. But u does it prepare you different levels? Does it prepare you as a better person like better in business, better in teaching? Who how do you how do you see this and how does it help
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah,
Bruno Gavino: you?
Michel Laporte Godorn: I I I think karate is um you go from a hobby and sport to a way of life. And uh I think what happened as I said I got stuck it it was that this mentality that you get from actually the the the buudo the art of Buudo which is you know the the the way of the samurai is uh basically uh having a student mentality all the time and uh and also learning how to push through and and get to know yourself because I think especially in these days where you we tend to give up very easily.
00:05:24
Michel Laporte Godorn: It's uh as soon as we face some form of adversity or um um you know resistance in life, it's so easy to just say well uh I I I tried once and that's it. How it helped me? Um I think without karate in my life, I would never do what I do today. I would never end up as an entrepreneur. I would never end up um working with with uh with in in entrepreneurship as I have done for basically all my life as well.
Bruno Gavino: Oh, that's a perfect perfect segue to my next question, which is what do you bring from that discipline into your daily challenges as an entrepreneur? As entrepreneurs, we know some days are pretty tough, other days are great, but the difficult days are really difficult. So, how do you keep that winning mentality and uh that karate mindset to your day?
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: Is that very important to
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah, it is.
Bruno Gavino: you?
Michel Laporte Godorn: Um well as you were saying I mean being an entrepreneur and living this life as a soloreneur for that matter is um it's really hard.
00:06:42
Michel Laporte Godorn: I think we we have this picture of entrepreneurs um driving around in Ferraris and life is good and they have no difficulties. I would say that it's the most challenging way of life you can you can enter. um that comes with a set of rules and set of conditions. Um it can give you freedom. It can give you a lot of these things that most people dream about. But it comes with a condition that you have to have some thick skin. And uh basically everything you learn from uh from uh from school uh you you can't use uh any of it because it's it's a it's a it's a world that you enter that is based on so many different things. Um a handshake is not a handshake. You you learn that what you see in social media is basically nothing compared to how it is in the in re in in real life. Um so having this background I think it has helped me a lot dealing with um adversities of course um treating a loss as a lesson even though it hurts you can still move forward.
00:08:01
Michel Laporte Godorn: Uh I like I like the quote when Rocky Balboa says uh it's not about how hard you can get hit but it's how hard how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. I would say that that is basically the essence of entrepreneurship as well. And with a martial art art background, you get to un learn and understand yourself that because when you get when you get punched, when you when when life beat you beat you to your knees, it's very easy to say, well, I tried. It's not for me. I have to do something else. But that moment can also be as close at you as you will ever get to the next level of your success. It's just like it's the purgatory of of of entrepreneurship, you know, and and if you don't if if you don't have the spirit to to to go through that, I think um that's where most people throw in the towel and and and and and do something else.
00:09:08
Michel Laporte Godorn: But for me it has really been um yeah there's so much I want to say but it it has been absolutely
Bruno Gavino: Yeah, I uh it
Michel Laporte Godorn: necessary.
Bruno Gavino: is moves. I mean it's you have to be in it with all the cells in your body. I guess the I always say that the good days are better but the bad days are worse.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: So it is it's it you get you get exposed to a lot of extremes. So um what made you jump into this adventure and why did you do
Michel Laporte Godorn: Um actually like many cases it was a little bit by accident actually uh back
Bruno Gavino: it?
Michel Laporte Godorn: in 2016 I uh I had just left a very highpaying job as a sales director for um a company here in Goththingberg where we were working with very high-end um IT solutions and market um trademark law uh etc. But I kind of hit the ceiling there uh after a couple of years. We went from 60 to over 120 million in turnover in in three years and it was a really great um experience.
00:10:27
Michel Laporte Godorn: But I you know I came to that classical um place where or situation where um life was good but I was bored and I I I know deep down I am an entrepreneur as you know when
Bruno Gavino: Yeah.
Michel Laporte Godorn: when you come to a certain situation where in life where it's not about the money anymore it's about the challenge and and how you grow inside. Uh it sounds a little cliche but the ones who knows knows what I'm talking about. So um so I had quit this job anyway and uh I was doing a little consulting here and consulting there and didn't really know what to do. And uh around 2016 um I I had been to a couple of networking events for entrepreneurs and I saw the same thing over and over again and that was that the sales skills of the average entrepreneurs was very very low to nothing at all. And so I started to, you know, do a deep dive into that subject. How how does the startup community actually look like in Sweden?
00:11:45
Michel Laporte Godorn: Because I never went the traditional way. I I after um high school, I I immediately started my own company. I built six companies before this one. So I've been in and out from the entrepreneurial life um all my life.
Bruno Gavino: Yes.
Michel Laporte Godorn: and um uh some were good and some were disasters as as always as always the case. But uh this time so so I was kind of curious how does it look like? What what happens when you um start your company in Sweden the way most people does it? And um the more I dug into this subject, the less I found when it came to um sales and marketing. It was basically every every startup course that I found, they had like one one hour or 30 minutes uh sales uh education programs. No matter where I looked, it was always the same story. It was more of how to do this and how to build a website and this and that but nothing about what do you do Monday morning when you have started your own company
00:13:11
Bruno Gavino: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And uh so when did you did you feel so going through through all of those events? Did you feel like there was a click in you saying okay maybe I can help all of these people, maybe I can make a business around this? How did you approach these companies? Because you know also entrepreneurs they feel like they have the idea and they want to sometimes sell them sell the idea although maybe I get it sometimes they don't know how. How did you approach them? How how did you make that into a
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: business?
Michel Laporte Godorn: So this was actually the part what I will call discovery phase of my own business because it took a couple of years actually before I really saw what what it was because I did the same thing. I thought I had the solution and everybody would cheer and say oh good uh let's go like every naive entrepreneur out there. Um, but as always in sales, it's not about the product, it's about the problem and how much awareness your market has around that problem or challenge.
00:14:15
Michel Laporte Godorn: And um I realized that being good at this wasn't enough. Having a solution uh in these matters wasn't enough. I had to I had to start to look into the real um the real purpose and buying behavior of my market. And so I always say that my journey here has been more of a learning curve. Me understanding on on a real deep level um the buying behaviors and the true challenges that entrepreneurs has in order to create this ecosystem. um where sales and marketing has a clear role and it's not about the product. It's not about the the the the solution that they they bring to the market because if you look at the statistics and this is a very important part of this uh of the whole answer that that I will give you. If you look at the statistics, and this is actually not just in Sweden, but seven out of 10 solo entrepreneurs can't uh pay their bills with with their own business. Seven out of 10 solopreneurs.
00:15:37
Michel Laporte Godorn: If you look at the startup community, nine out of 10 startups fail within the first 18
Bruno Gavino: Oh,
Michel Laporte Godorn: months and they have fundings behind them. So you know I I took all the statistics as well and I started to look at so what is what is the driving driving force here because again having a solution was was never enough. Having a solution was never enough. So when I started to look into what is the true value that I could bring to the market, I started to talk publicly about how to address um um economical stress for an example. Now they started to listen to me. Now they started to really pay attention. When I started to really talk to their pain rather to a solution that they weren't even aware that they needed, everything changes. And that was basically and it took me actually through the pandemic. It was around 2021 and the at the in the end of 2020 that I that I feel that I really cracked the code and I and and and also together with my own brand had reached a a height that was good enough to to make sure that they listened and and uh you know started to pay attention.
00:17:06
Michel Laporte Godorn: So that was basically how everything
Bruno Gavino: Yeah.
Michel Laporte Godorn: started.
Bruno Gavino: Yeah. Because uh looking back you I mean you have more than two decades in sales, right? So you are talking to people that a lot of times have an idea first time with the
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: market. They don't understand the the hurdles, they don't understand the pain. Uh how do you use a situation where you talk to each one of them individually trying to highlight what's the most important thing for you for them or do you have a certain methodology that you try to go over and over to see this results come out of the other
Michel Laporte Godorn: It it's kind of interesting because uh first I was trying to you know uh it it's a the answer is actually both but what what what was really interesting as you said I've been working with sales for for two decades uh built my own companies etc but I never studied sales before And I would say that the the the difference now is that I have really studied sales and marketing to a to a three-dimensional realm that I never been that I never seen before.
00:18:23
Michel Laporte Godorn: Much more about behaviors uh and and how they move um um the true value of something and and what drives people to a change etc etc. And one thing that I always see that is a common factor is that I and this is something that always shock entrepreneurs. I always say your product or your service is always second in your sales and marketing strategy. And some people they get angry. They say, "What do you mean? We have we have the best solution in the world for this and that and so on." and I say, "Yeah, that's that's great, but nobody's going to buy it." And and we have so much evidence that I'm right on this point. Um so, so what happened I I started to look into um again, as I said before, it's first it's about the problem. They most entrepreneurs, they are so focused on their product or their service. So they they leave out um in their own conversation and dialogue with their with their own market.
00:19:36
Michel Laporte Godorn: They leave out to create the dialogue to to understand their own buying behaviors. They they they don't see the pains and the and and the reasons why they the their own clients should create a change. And if we don't understand that,
Bruno Gavino: That's
Michel Laporte Godorn: nobody will buy your products. That's just the way it is in B2C.
Bruno Gavino: it.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yes, if I want to buy a sweatshirt, I can do that spontaneously. But I'm not going to buy something for my B2B business just spontaneously like that. That that that is over. You you we we will not do that anymore. So in order for us to sell our expertise or our services, we we need to start to understand our markets on a much deeper level
Bruno Gavino: Yeah.
Michel Laporte Godorn: and that's where the system comes into play. Um I said before that around 2021 um
Bruno Gavino: Heat.
Michel Laporte Godorn: I started to really see how this works after studying it for for all those years.
00:20:42
Michel Laporte Godorn: And that was actually that became the foundation of what I call today my impact sales program for entrepreneurs.
Bruno Gavino: Okay. Yeah. I want to go into that a little bit later on because something that I am curious about is of course after you've taken you've been taking uh founders from early stages into like raise and venture capital. So I assume now you are in a moment that and I know you're in a moment that you are not obviously working with everyone that shows up. So what is internally what's your criteria to pick up these winners? You know the founders that you think will reach the top?
Michel Laporte Godorn: Um,
Bruno Gavino: Do you see any pattern?
Michel Laporte Godorn: actually the only criteria Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: Is this something you're looking for at this moment?
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah. The the criteria I'm looking for is people that really want to make a change and build something because there's a lot of want entrepreneurs out there. the again going back to the beginning of this conversation, they want to do this journey as long as it's uh you know soft and without any any obstacles.
00:21:53
Michel Laporte Godorn: Um but I'm looking for the people that really want to build something and I I prefer to work with in the in the beginning with the entrepreneurs when they are in the beginning of their journeys. That's where I'm that's where my expertise is actually at its best. Uh I think it's important also to say uh I'm I am not the one that will take your company from 100 million to 1 billion. That's not me. I am the one that will help you start living on your company. Um make your first million, make your first maybe five to 10 millions. uh if it and we're talking organically now and then but with the with the foundation that we've built, you can take it to wherever level you want from there. Uh but so I'm I'm looking for willpower. That that is basically my my I mean I've been working with so many different companies at this point. It's like crazy
Bruno Gavino: Exactly. Yes.
00:22:59
Bruno Gavino: I don't know.
Michel Laporte Godorn: the
Bruno Gavino: I don't know how you I don't know how you keep track of all these companies. Maybe it's your karate thing
Michel Laporte Godorn: maybe.
Bruno Gavino: ideas.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah. No,
Bruno Gavino: Uh yeah.
Michel Laporte Godorn: but it's it's in the end it's always the the people behind it,
Bruno Gavino: So yeah,
Michel Laporte Godorn: you know. That's that's you always come back to that.
Bruno Gavino: the secret.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: Okay. And u walk me through a little bit your master class uh and the idea of the black belt sales. Um if we break that down,
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: what what does black belts in modern sales looks like? You know, with all these new with all these new things going
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah. So, exactly. So, again, I I'll take let's go first to what is a black belt.
Bruno Gavino: around
Michel Laporte Godorn: Okay. And I I I actually brought um you know every every Monday still I do 50 20 rounds of sparring.
00:23:52
Michel Laporte Godorn: Okay. Every Monday I do 20 rounds of sparring still. And I brought uh a client that I've been working with for uh a couple of years now. He he's also into martial arts. So he said, "Michelle, can I join?" I said, "Yeah, sure. Um you just come as you are and and we have some fun." and we he joined the sparring and and in the car back when we were when we were going home, he said, "Michelle, it was interesting because when I when I sparred you and the other black belt, um it was you you you didn't you didn't run towards me as much as the other guys, lower belts. They were more like, you know, swinging and they were, you know, um more offensive and so. You guys, you you you were patient and and you took your time, but as soon as I had an opening, you guys smashed me to pieces basically. And I said I said to him, I said, "Christian," his name is Christian.
00:24:57
Michel Laporte Godorn: I said, "Christian, now you really understand the difference between beginners in sales and a black belt in sales?" because that is basically that that would summarize what I mean with the black belt in sales and being a black belt is not about the belt itself. It's it's about a mentality, a a way to mature as uh as an individual in your I mean you can be a black belt as a carpenter, you can be a black belt as a musician. You have a guitarist that can feel the guitar from a whole different level. Um uh and then if I would pick up a guitar I would go like beam or I mean just stupid and I wouldn't it would take me a lifetime to maybe understand what I want to do with the black belt in sales is that I want to take the attention away from you know Bruno traditionally we have we have measured sales in numbers and that's it. We haven't measured sales in understanding um we haven't measured sales in habits.
00:26:09
Michel Laporte Godorn: We haven't measured sales in mindset um in patience and all of these other things. And what I wanted to do with my program it was basically to to say hey listen it's not about the results it's about the process towards the results because traditionally in the west especially in the west we have this um obsession about results but it's all about the process because process creates results results is dead while process is always a living thing and we can always improve a process. Process is future. result is um is your uh past and and and once we start to let go of of result thinking mode and we start to think about the process, we always we also immediately tend to have a little more little bit more patience into our work because one thing that I when I see when I work with entrepreneurs especially they want to go from zero to to a million within three weeks. And everybody who has done a a journey knows that that that won't happen.
00:27:37
Michel Laporte Godorn: So part of this master class that I'm doing is to step by step making creating a foundation. I don't want them to just increase their sales um for now and then when I leave everything is over. I want them to really understand what it's all about. I want them to understand how to see the buying behaviors behind their markets, to build real solid bridges out there, to build their brands, to work smart, not just hard, but smart. But we can work hard as well. A true black belt in its in in its essence. Um, we can be ferocious as well, but we don't need to. That's that's the thing because we have already learned how to just use what's necessary in the moment we're in and that's it. So, so yeah,
Bruno Gavino: interesting.
Michel Laporte Godorn: that that is the black belt in in a nutshell.
Bruno Gavino: So,
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: so uh also digging around a little bit uh and um obviously looking at your book uh which it's unpronouncable to me.
00:28:58
Bruno Gavino: I'm sorry, but I I glanced into it and there's something at the book that I
Michel Laporte Godorn: More than sales.
Bruno Gavino: really there is a something at the book that I
Michel Laporte Godorn: It It's called modern sales.
Bruno Gavino: really Okay. Okay. I found the I found also the the translation translated original like version
Michel Laporte Godorn: Okay. Super fun.
Bruno Gavino: uh on that on that transl translation I found something that I think it's amazing and I I absolutely love it which is the moving from pressure to partnership and how does that shift the entire
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: company and how that does and how can companies uh design their entire sales team targets and culture into a more partnership included
Michel Laporte Godorn: Heat.
Bruno Gavino: partnership driven um strategy. Uh how do you how do you emphasize that on on organizations that these days are so focused on bottom line so focused on daily sales, yearly sales? Yeah. In commerce like hourly sales.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: How do you how you know is it a top down methodology?
00:30:08
Bruno Gavino: Do you talk to everyone in the company?
Michel Laporte Godorn: No.
Bruno Gavino: How how does a process like that works for
Michel Laporte Godorn: Um, no. But it's it's I think it's an attitude that we have to be tackled in the
Bruno Gavino: you?
Michel Laporte Godorn: boardroom before it can happen anywhere else in the organization because it's it's about again it's about the perspective and it's about a mentality and uh and uh going from pressure to partnership is actually a way to you know that's also a thing when when you have a closed fist you can't do anything else but punch with it. You it's useless. But if you open your hand, you can do a lot of things and you can invite. And it's this that's what basically what pressure and partnership is all about. Pressure is is is a closed fist while partnership is actually to open your hand and and and you know invite your your market to you. And I think it's important now, especially now when you look at 2026 and forward, we live in a such a in in a in such a in in in the environment where it's all about pressure, more ads, more this, more that.
00:31:23
Michel Laporte Godorn: But the ones that can take a step back and be more precise, be more open, be more generous, uh be more understanding of of of again the buying behaviors of their markets. That's when you create partnerships because a partner needs understanding, not pressure. Just ask your wife, you know.
Bruno Gavino: Okay, fair enough. That's good.
Michel Laporte Godorn: You see, it's it's the same
Bruno Gavino: Okay.
Michel Laporte Godorn: thing.
Bruno Gavino: Again, I'm going to ask postp production to cut this part here, but yes, absolutely.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: Okay. Yeah, that that makes that makes total sense. And uh also something you said that I've caught somewhere like in in one of the other these interviews is that you mentioned that um quick fixes create stress as in processes
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: create a certain flow.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: Uh but if you have a small business and you know every sale is critical and you're aiming for let's say your first hund couple like $100,000 or million dollar um what does simple but effective mean to these sales teams?
00:32:40
Bruno Gavino: How how can these sales teams look into
Michel Laporte Godorn: So I think it's necessary to to when when I talk say
Bruno Gavino: this?
Michel Laporte Godorn: this I I'm talking about the entrepreneurs and not the sales a sales team is basically hired to create pressure out there. So that's why I actually don't work with sales teams so much anymore because they still have a lot of a long way to go when it comes to this. When I work with the entrepreneurs, um, we have to go back to how do you create what is a sale? Well, sales will happen when you have some form of um um psychological um trust in u incorporated in your in your in your approach in your business. Okay. Um and with with trust comes curiosity and and and you and you become open for change. Uh but you're also open to um to think to to um how do you say uh you're also open to um rethink your own situation. Now being when when when we work with uh sales and we start to go out there and we do the we do the cold calls, we do the you know pressure form of sales, it tends to be a little little bit desperate and the and the problem is that your clients will sense that your client will sense that you are desperate for their money.
00:34:32
Michel Laporte Godorn: Um because we we we do not communicate with words. We communicate with intention. We communicate with with our with our feelings first. Um the the the feeling you create will also uh lead you to the level of how they will listen to you. Okay. So when you are desperate they will sense th this and they will actually react with um rejection and pressure comes when we don't own a process. Well you know when if you ask 100 entrepreneurs what's your sales and marketing process can you write that down for me or just explain to me how it looks like and what it is. I would bet you that 95 of these hundred can't answer that question because it's always oh well I do a little bit there I do a little bit there I do a little bit there. Now the difference is that when you have a process, you can just learn how to trust the process itself and you know the result will come and you will calm down and you will have a much more um professional approach to your market and you will close more deals.
00:35:51
Michel Laporte Godorn: The problem is that you don't have a process so you can't trust the process. So you get stressed and now you go out and pressure your market again. You see the
Bruno Gavino: Okay, I see. Yes. And uh how does that tie up with all these new AI things that are
Michel Laporte Godorn: difference?
Bruno Gavino: going around? And I know you've explored this deeply and I've read a lot of things you've wrote about this. So in your view uh which parts of sales should be like immediately automated to AI agents or whatever you want to call them and which part should stay deeply human because if I mean
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah,
Bruno Gavino: I totally subscribe to you are saying people buy from people but of course we have all these new available tools.
Michel Laporte Godorn: of course.
Bruno Gavino: How do you see this? Because
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah, I I I think we should welcome um technology and AI. Of course, we have to and it's already here,
00:36:45
Bruno Gavino: Um,
Michel Laporte Godorn: so we can't fight it. And um but again a tool is not better than the people using it. So I always tell my own clients because this is the question that I get every day from my own clients and I always tell them listen first you crack the code of how to approach what is the buying behaviors of your market why should I buy your stuff etc etc. Then you can zoom out and see which parts here can we automate and which part do we just have to leave it as it is. Um like for an example I know I know now there's a lot of if you look at LinkedIn there's a lot of tools that can connect with other people they can send messages etc etc and I always tell them that this tool will bring more harm than good if you don't know what you're doing with it. It's it will only accelerate your own level. So I always say be open to it but be humble to it as well.
00:38:08
Michel Laporte Godorn: Um so all these tools that can save time save um uh make something as uh efficient and and also I want to add into that conversation that as soon as we start to talk about AI tools I think it's a matter of usually it becomes a little bit black and white. it either we automat uh we fully automatic everything or or nothing. But again, if you look at the whole process, if you could just um if you could um have some parts um automatically working out with AI, then you would save probably a ton of time and you can be more efficient and then you win regardless. Um there's always an example that I I I I just want to say this as well because I think it's very important question and I think we're at we're at this um stage on the market where a lot of companies they buy into all these tools especially when it comes to sales and marketing because everybody's looking for the fountain of youth. Um, but listen, I always say this.
00:39:28
Michel Laporte Godorn: I can get a tractor and some water and some seeds and a piece of land, but it doesn't make it doesn't assure me that I can be a farmer anyway.
Bruno Gavino: Okay. Yeah,
Michel Laporte Godorn: Why?
Bruno Gavino: that's a great parallel.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah, it is. And and and I so it doesn't matter. The tools is always second to your knowledge. You still have to understand certain things. If I want to be a farmer, I still need to understand the earth. I still need to understand agriculture. I still need still need to understand all those components. And then I can go and buy the tools. But when it comes to sales and marketing, I see it every day, Bruno. Every day I see those marketing, you know, they say, "Oh, you just use this and you will have 3,000 leads." And so on. I go like, "Oh my god." And I can see what's happening. So be cautious, be
00:40:30
Bruno Gavino: So in the middle so in the middle of the all this noise that we have out there like you know like you were
Michel Laporte Godorn: humble.
Bruno Gavino: saying funnels, hacks, magic,
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: I don't know, crystal ball, we don't know. Uh, from where you're si sitting and because you have access to so many entrepreneurs, what would you what would you say is the biggest lie, you know, in modern like in modern sales and in modern uh company development for these entrepreneurs, you know, like what is the thing you hear the most?
Michel Laporte Godorn: that money solves everything that
Bruno Gavino: Okay, just dump enough money to
Michel Laporte Godorn: I Yeah, just look at the startup industry and you have the you you have the you have everything there
Bruno Gavino: it.
Michel Laporte Godorn: that I'm saying because um again um if you want to build a funding for an example, it's never enough. It will just give you some temporarily um breath of fresh air, but that's it. It it it sooner or later the market will catch up to you and if you haven't done your homework there, there's actually a great example of what I'm saying.
00:41:47
Michel Laporte Godorn: You know, Forbes magazine, Bruno, of course you do. And um if you if you would Google uh January
Bruno Gavino: Mhm.
Michel Laporte Godorn: 1st January edition Forbes magazine 2007. Okay. If you would Google that, you would see on the cover of Forbes, it would be um the the CEO of Nokia. You remember Nokia?
Bruno Gavino: We all do.
Michel Laporte Godorn: You you and I are old enough to remember.
Bruno Gavino: Pretty res pretty resistant films.
Michel Laporte Godorn: And you know what the headline was?
Bruno Gavino: We're the last ones. Yes.
Michel Laporte Godorn: You know what the headline was on this one?
Bruno Gavino: I I
Michel Laporte Godorn: So the headline the headline was 1 billion customers.
Bruno Gavino: don't
Michel Laporte Godorn: Who will ever be able to challenge the cell phone king? Five years later. Five five years later.
Bruno Gavino: Yeah,
Michel Laporte Godorn: Nobody had a Nokia in their pocket anymore. You see?
Bruno Gavino: it's Yeah, it's it's crazy.
Michel Laporte Godorn: And and and so that's basically it.
00:42:57
Bruno Gavino: So, yeah.
Michel Laporte Godorn: If I I always say the biggest lie is to think that um it's a again it's not about the what you're selling, it's about your understanding of your market.
Bruno Gavino: So what you're so what you're saying here is like um with this amount of technology we have
Michel Laporte Godorn: So
Bruno Gavino: available these days and uh incorporating that into our into our internal and external processes this will keep speeding up if we do it correctly. So if you had a crystal ball like if you had to look five or 10 years ahead, how do you how would you say the role of the salesman is and uh will it be the same? Will it be just a focus on human connection interaction or do you think it will be much more of a hybrid solution to something that maybe we don't even know yet?
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah, of of course it's some kind of hybrid uh solution that we're seeing. First of all, I I think it's it's a couple of different answers to this question because first of all, I can see that the role of the salesperson, the role of sales itself starts to become much more important.
00:44:19
Michel Laporte Godorn: I can just look back 10 years from now to to to today. 10 years ago, if you even said the word sales here, you would be stoned on open street. They they they wouldn't I mean, they will just run. They would run away. Now they start to see that okay selling is part of my survival. All right I I somehow it has become like consensus on the market. Now looking forward 10 years from now I think of course AI will have a huge um impact on on sales. You know, for an example, also if you look at uh like um um how do you call it? Um if you look at uh cold calling, if you look at uh customer centers, if you look at all these um back office kind of sales, I think it will be replaced with AI. Uh definitely I I have I I have also tried AI tools when it comes to outbound um uh calls. Uh and this was very light.
00:45:27
Michel Laporte Godorn: It was just uh I had a event. So I had a lot of people that had signed up for for a big event here in Goththingberg and I had AI calling them reminding them of the day and what to bring and not to bring and so on. And I mean, this is so crazy. I I went to a a company that had um telemarketers and I said, "Listen, I just need help with this. Uh how much would you charge me if I um if you would just call all of the people that have already signed up and just give them some service?" And I said, "Well, it's about 30 20 to 30,000, something like that." So I ended up uh uh talking to a to a a connection that I have on LinkedIn and they said, "Michael, we have this AI tool. It can do these calls for you in Swedish, which was, you know, because in English it works really well, but in Swedish it was a little bit so and so, but um they had actually one that was really great.
00:46:30
Michel Laporte Godorn: And I mean in in five minutes it had called a couple of thousand people and that was just crazy. And the feedback was amazing actually. It was like wow. I I was sweating because I was like oh my god how how will people react because I of course it's my job to also push the boundaries and see what is you know how do people react and so on. But it was really great and uh I must say that um I think it gave me an indication of the future. So I think that the simple parts of selling will be more and more replaced by AI. But when you come to when it comes to um more complex and more um high-end sales if you know what I mean we'll still we will use AI in our approach or and also perhaps in the follow-up uh sequences and so on but I think the human um uh interaction will be even more important. So unfortunately I think that those who get this they will you know rise to another level and I think the rest will perish and have to do something
00:47:51
Bruno Gavino: Okay. Yeah, that makes total sense.
Michel Laporte Godorn: else.
Bruno Gavino: Um tell me something like um as you know many small business owners get stuck between that 500k and 1 million ceiling and then never they're never able to break that ceiling. So if you were forced to give them let's say a few concrete steps on uh how to get there where would you start? I know it's difficult because there's it's not a business, but it's generic,
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah.
Bruno Gavino: but you've you've seen so many that uh I'm sure you can give us a couple of our good
Michel Laporte Godorn: Yeah. So first of all, I think it's very important to start if you look at a tree.
Bruno Gavino: ideas.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Um I always I always draw a picture of a tree and I always uh start in the roots and what do you have in the roots of a tree? The the the stronger the roots are of the tree, the higher the tree goes. Okay? And the more it can withstand.
00:48:51
Michel Laporte Godorn: So speaking with this uh to an entrepreneur that's stuck between 500,000 and 1 million, I would start in the roots and I would say okay so first of all um we look at the competition because one one big mistake that most small solo entrepreneurs or small business owner leave out is that they don't do their um competition research. They don't they don't look into their competition. They just go on and on and on and on. I always tell them, listen, who is your top five um competitors out there? What's your top five top uh who who are they? Why do people buy from them? What are their strength? And what is their weakness? Now, when you're done answering that, now you can answer the my second question, which is so why should I buy from you? And you have to refresh this every at least once a year. You have to refresh this because you I mean we live in a society where you can have zero competitors on Monday and five fresh ones on Friday.
00:49:58
Michel Laporte Godorn: That's that's the new world we live in. So it's a little bit naive to not start with, you know, looking over your um take a look at your competitors. Now, when it comes to small business owners, I always ask them to show me how because we we as a as a business owner, you have two budgets. you have your survival budget and you have your um dream budget then and your dream budget always moves up the the like you know as as you get better uh and and you and you reach those goals you move the bar upwards but but uh when it comes to the survival budget I always say that it shouldn't take more than at two businesses two deals per month for a small business owner to reach their survival budget. If they do that then it will be easy to go further from there. But if it would take 10 deals and one each deal is like two weeks, three weeks of a of a of a process itself, it will just create stress and pressure and that's not a process.
00:51:14
Michel Laporte Godorn: Okay. So we we build from there. Now when all this is said and done, two things will always be um in the core for a for a soloreneur. Uh pricing is always a factor and most solopreneurs they sell out themselves. Um whenever I go inside and I look and I say why do you they say oh well I I um if it's a consultant for an example they say well I I I charge um€150 per hour or something like that. I said okay but and what about your competitors? Well they are a bigger firm and they do two and a half 250 to 300. So I said so what's the difference? Yeah but they are a big firm. I say so what? So we start to look into their packaging and we start to you know increase their um their their value um proposition to the market. Um and with these factors we can from there start to look into okay so uh how does your digital strategy look like?
00:52:27
Michel Laporte Godorn: Because if you don't, one of the things that everybody needs to have today is a digital strategy which includes LinkedIn for an example or whatever platform your pre presumptive uh clients are are moving around in. But but a digital strategy is super important if you want to grow your business. It's not even negotiable anymore. So that is one of the things that I look into. Um and then from there it's a couple of different thing but if you just do these first things that I said you will increase your sales dramatically from uh within the first 12 months. It's it's actually not that hard.
Bruno Gavino: This is great. Uh, time flies. We're on an hour mark, but I still have two questions for you.
Michel Laporte Godorn: No problem.
Bruno Gavino: Actually,
Michel Laporte Godorn: I'm not in a hurry.
Bruno Gavino: that they got me thinking. Okay, go. One is how do you and this is more on a personal question level. How do you deal with the moments where an entpreneur goes low on motivation, things are hard, you know, clients leave, um you're not getting there, you feel like you'll you left your safe job behind, but you know, still the mountain is still pretty high.
00:53:51
Bruno Gavino: How do you keep them focused and how do you help them in that process?
Michel Laporte Godorn: It's actually a great question and I I of course I see this every month actually. Um but when I start working with my clients for an example, I always tell them that this day will come. It's not if it will come, it will come. So we start um to work with that scenario before it happens. And usually when it comes to stress, the the the number one thing that stresses entrepreneurs are finances. The second one is usually family or um you know bad conscience about you know you don't you're not enough and you're you you have you don't have time for the people that are important. I mean I've been there too. Everyone has been there. And so we start to look into okay so let's see what what what what will we do when this happens and uh uh going to this um when it comes to financial stress again it happens when we don't have control.
00:55:04
Michel Laporte Godorn: So, one of the things that we do to make sure we don't end up there where we have such a deep um um um canyon that that we fall into um is to have control over over the the the marketing process that leads to a sales process and sales process that leads to clients. So we we we have to understand that this is the formula in order for us to take control over stress and and and and our feelings when motivation is low. Another thing that I always emphasize when I work with my entrepreneurs is that they need to have a feel-good strategy. Oh, I'm glad I didn't forget to mention this. Um, I would say that this is probably the most important thing that you need to have as an entrepreneur. A feel-good strategy. Mine, for an example, is that I I go for a walk. Five days a week. I go for a walk in this in the forest. No headphones, nothing.
00:56:11
Michel Laporte Godorn: Just alone with my own thoughts. I start my day with that. That works for me. I'm not saying that everyone else should do that. And my sparring on Mondays. That's my therapy. Um, but I always tell my clients, you need to have something that you do consistently every week that makes you feel good. And and this is so important. It's easy to go like, "Yeah, but I don't need it." No, no, no, no, no. That's actually if you want to work with me, that's that's something that I demand. It's not even negotiable. You need to have a feel-good routine because the greatest way out of depression, the greatest way out of negative feelings is routine and discipline. You have those two, it will be better than any medication you can ever buy in the stores. And it's much more longlasting. So that is my answer.
Bruno Gavino: This is great.
00:57:11
Bruno Gavino: This is this is great advice. Uh Mitchell, uh this has been a master class itself. Thank you so much.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Thank you, Bruno.
Bruno Gavino: Uh one last question though.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Thank you.
Bruno Gavino: If you could one last question though.
Michel Laporte Godorn: Shoot.
Bruno Gavino: If you could send a short note to every entrepreneur listening to us now about the future in this insecurity that everyone's feeling, what would it
Michel Laporte Godorn: I always say that we get stressed today because uh we we first of all we compare
Bruno Gavino: be?
Michel Laporte Godorn: ourselves to everyone else. That's the curse of social media. Um and entrepreneurs out there especially that go to LinkedIn where everybody looks super um successful and so on. I want you to if you listen to this and you're an entrepreneur, you're struggling or whatever, um listen, you are on your own path. you are on your own um journey and and no matter what you see in social media, it's always what they want you to see.
00:58:11
Michel Laporte Godorn: It's not about reality. It's never about reality in social media. Now, get control over everything that we talked about in this hour uh me and Bruno. And if you seize control and you create your process, I promise you, you will get the result that you need or want. You will feel the way you want to feel and this journey will not be just about survival. It will make you thrive not just in your business but as a person as well. But it doesn't matter if I believe in that. You have to believe in that yourself as well. Okay. So that's my advice to
Bruno Gavino: Mitchell, thank you. Mitchell,
Michel Laporte Godorn: everyone.
Bruno Gavino: thank you so much. So, so much for sharing your expertise in your fighter perspective today with us. This was great. It was really amazing. A lot of great things
Michel Laporte Godorn: Thank you, Bruno. Thank you.
Bruno Gavino: here.
Michel Laporte Godorn: And very nice to be here and and I was h very honored to be part of your podcast as well.
Bruno Gavino: Oh, you're welcome. We're we're we're the we're the ones honored to have you here.
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